Judge of the Supreme Court of India, Jasti Chelameswar joins Sadhguru to explore India as a nation, its future, and what it will take to build Bharat.
Through the Mystic Eye is a series of episodes featuring Sadhguru in conversation with several eminent personalities. Jasti Chelameswar, KV Kamath, Virender Sehwag, Shekhar Kapur and many more of India’s leading celebrities and public figures engage Sadhguru in discussions ranging from business and governance to sports, education and mysticism.
Chelameshwar: I suppose so long as human beings being what they are and the society is what it is, they are certainly bound to be certain things which are right and certain things…certain…a certain conduct which are right and certain conduct which is not right.
See everybody talks now-a-days in this country about corruption, at every level, everybody…
Sadhguru: Let’s…We should talk about right and wrong a little more.
Chelameshwar: Sorry, sorry.
Sadhguru: We should talk about right and wrong a little more.
Chelameshwar: Oh! Then I suppose that’s an aspect of right and wrong.
Sadhguru: Yes. See, what I am saying is when people do not know what is absolutely right and what is absolutely wrong, then they will wonder. When they wonder, there is no conflict. So now, when you do not know what’s ‘the right thing’ and I do not know what’s ‘the right thing’, when we act, we will act in the larger interest of the people. That is a natural consequence of that.
Now somebody misusing it for their benefit is a different issue. But, if the whole population is in this – okay nobody knows the absolute right, nobody knows the absolutely wrong, nobody is absolutely good, nobody is absolutely bad – if you see this, you would evaluate a situation for what it is at that moment and when you have to act, you will act in the interest of larger well-being, always. Does anybody really know what is absolutely right?
Chelameshwar: No. When you say ‘Absolutely right’ in the absolute philosophical terms…
Sadhguru: Not in philosophical terms. Even in life…
Chelameshwar: Sadhguru, I would like to ask you a question. I suppose anybody sitting in this gathering…
Sadhguru: I know… I know you will come to the Delhi situation…
Sadhguru: (Laughs) You will pick up something very sensitive.
Chelameshwar: Now I don’t think anybody will contribute to the… proposition that corruption is right by…from any point of view. Somebody…
Sadhguru: Let me tell you. You…
Chelameshwar: Somebody sitting in a public office, making money, using his office.
Sadhguru: Let me tell you. See you are calling it corruption. I have… I have had the unfortunate privilege of sometimes moving closely with the people whom you consider corrupt. Okay?
Chelameshwar: All right. (Laughter)
Sadhguru: And you will be amazed… you will be amazed and – initially it was shocking to me but when I really looked through them, I see their reasoning. They don’t think they’re corrupt. (Laughter) I tell you. They don’t think they’re corrupt. They… they just say everybody would do the same thing. I got the opportunity, they don’t have the opportunity. (Laughter) So they are only complaining that they don’t have the opportunity. And right now, for the elected representatives, for example, if you want to get elected, you have to go and seek your Mama’s help and blessings. Your Mama’s son will do things on the street for you. Many things like this happen.
Then… let’s say you become the Minister. Then you’ll say I am not corrupt, I am not nepotic, you know I am not going to support my Mama, I am not going to support my Mama’s son. Whole village and the whole community will say what kind of a namakharam he is. (Laughter)
Chelameshwar: Yeah I agree.
Sadhguru: (Laughs) I am saying, you need to understand you are still moving from a feudalistic society to a democratic idea, not yet a democratic society. You’re still a feudalistic society in your mindset. But you have democratic dreams. So, mindset is completely feudalistic, society is still in the feudalistic values, but we have democratic dreams. So what is corruption, what is not corruption itself is not defined. I am not trying to give a (an?) escape route for all these people, who are doing horrible things to the nation. So the only thing that can fix this country, in terms of corruption is we need people who have a huge passion for this nation. Okay? He is good… they are good, they are bad is not the problem. The problem is we need somebody who has a tremendous passion for the wellbeing of this nation. And all nations are run like this. The good leaders for those nations were bad to the rest of the world, most of the time. Yes. Yes or no?
Sadhguru: It may be shocking that I am speaking like this. I am talking reality because we have not still come to such a place of… such a sense of consciousness, where we will embrace the whole world and benefit everybody… no. We are still working for small self-interest groups that may be a nation or a group of nations that we call as allies, or it may be a state or it may be a just divided state (Laughter), or it may be a family or a community or a religion or whatever, okay? We are still in that state of consciousness, everywhere in the world. Only thing is we think it’s better to at least make our consciousness envelope the nation so that it’s a little larger body of people. But one nation works for its well-being with great intensity, do you know how much harm it causes to the rest of the world? Tremendous harm. Okay?
But we are okay with it because we are being benefitted. I am saying the same thing happens in small scale within the nation. A particular community works for its own wellbeing at the cost of somebody else. A particular family works for its own wellbeing at the cost of somebody else. So I am saying, essentially it is… a… a problem of human consciousness but that’s a very large issue to address. Right now, because we are talking about India as a nation, at least we need somebody who has a passion for this nation. Not bothering about somebody’s good, somebody’s bad.
In Tamil… in Tamil there is a saying when it comes to the King, “Nallavan venuma? Vallavan venuma?” That means do you want a good man or do you want a capable man? So right now we need somebody who is capable and who has great passion for this nation. That is the only way – it is not all problems will be fixed – that is the only way we start moving towards a solution. Right now, we are heading for a big problem, because what holds a nation together, everybody must understand – if you want to run a nation – whatever the nation, you must understand what is it that binds the people? There is some passion because nation is just an idea. It is not a reality, let’s understand this. Nation is just an idea. What is it that binds all the people as one nation, that idea and that passion has to be constantly strengthened. If you constantly keep weakening it and then try to hold the nation together, you will not succeed.
If we go the way we are going right now – I am sorry to say this – nobody will like this nor do I like it, I hate to say this. If we go on the same route and trajectory as we are going right now, in fifty years you will be minimum five to eight nations, believe me, unless you change your trajectory. This is the time… this generation of people have this responsibility that if we do not change the trajectory of this nation the way it’s going right now, there will be no one ‘India’ in another fifty years of time. It may not take fifty years.
Chelameshwar: But how does this generation do it? (Sadhguru Laughs) How to do it? How do you…How do you… see?
Sadhguru: See ‘how’ is not one aspect alone. There’re many aspects to it. See it’s all right where people wear imported watches, imported clothes, but they shouldn’t import their brains and hearts from somewhere else. It’s very important. (Laughs) And that is happening in the form of our education. In the way we are culturing ourselves. There is nothing wrong with anything that comes from outside the country, we must take the best that comes from everywhere from the world. That is the nature of any evolving, growing society. But at the same time, what holds us together as a nation should not be sacrificed. If you sacrifice that you won’t be able to hold it together. People will not stay together. You know you can’t hold three, four brothers together. Unless you bind them emotionally and create a passion towards something, you can’t bind them together. If the parents did not take care of that, you can’t hold them together. They will go away somewhere. If they live far away, they won’t fight. If they come close, they will be in your court. (Laughter)
So this is true with a family, this is true with a nation, any idea which has turned into an institution or an entity, this is always the thing that if you do not create passion for it on all levels, you can’t keep it together and that’s not going to happen just because you stand up and sing your National Anthem. You must understand what holds the nation together. The basic thing that held this nation together was always that – in this nation, we did not believe this nor that. Only thing is we knew we have to become free. Liberation was the highest goal. If you keep it that way, if you manage to activate this back in the society you will see people will stay together. Otherwise every group will form its own belief systems and they will all go separate. You can’t keep them together.
At the very birth of this nation, we broke into three pieces. Every hundred years, we may come to it or less, if we do not take care of a few fundamentals.
Chelameshwar: And what measures are to be taken to create that atmosphere where people work towards that goal?
Sadhguru: As I emphasized that we have never been a nation of believers. And that’s very…very, very, very important because a believer means he has assumed something that he does not know. A seeker means he has realized that he does not know. He is not enlightened but he knows that he does not know. In any situation, whatever kind of situation you are in, if you realize you do not know, is there much room for conflict, I am asking? Only when you think that you know, when you do not know and you think that you know, you… there is room for conflict, isn’t it? And the whole… the basis of modern science is just this that you assume that… anything that you see you do not know and you experiment and explore to know.
This has been the fundamental ethos of making this nation. This nation stood out in the world, right from ancient times, because there was no any belief system, everybody is a seeker. Because everybody is a seeker, he explored, human-intelligence overflowed at one time in this nation and did wonderful things. And that phenomenal USP that we have, we’re destroying it today in competition because somewhere else somebody has achieved something with belief. You’re trying to go there. No. It will not work because you cannot transform people from one level to another in one generation or two generations. It’ll take a long time.
It’s best that what you’re strong on, you build on that. You don’t try to build on America…an (a?) United States of America in India – it’s never going to work. You build an India in India, a strong powerful India you can build. You don’t try to build United States in India, it’s not going to work because they all came together for a different reason altogether. The North American people are there the way they are because they came there for a different reason and they came together for that reason and that reason is working for them.
Here it’s not like that. This is a completely different reality. You’re trying to super-impose another reality upon yourself. That will not work. This is not against anything, this is not for anything. I am speaking English language, amn’t I? So I am not against anything for that matter but I am for that which works. I am against all those things which do not work. Why do you want to invest time and life and people’s lives in things that do not work? The very fact sixty five years after independence or sixty six or sixty seven years now after independence – I don’t want to go into the ridiculous debate that’s been happening about how much a meal costs in this country – we clearly know from my experience of working with village, being in the villages, I clearly know at least fifty to fifty-five percent of people, their existence is like cattle, not like human beings the quality of life. Okay? They are somehow managing, so we think they are okay.
Everybody will manage. If you and me are thrown on the street and there’s nothing, we will somehow manage, isn’t it? Wont’ we manage? We will eat a dead crow and manage. That is not life. So they’re somehow managing. That is not life. After sixty-seventy years, two generations of people, their lives are gone and if still we can’t find basic solutions that means we’re doing something wrong, isn’t it? It doesn’t work for the people, what is the nation I am asking? This is stupid idea, isn’t it?
Chelameshwar: And why do you think it didn’t work for sixty seven years? What is your analysis and understanding of it?
Sadhguru: You’re getting me into trouble. (Laughter)
Sadhguru: You are getting me into trouble, I said.
Chelameshwar: Ooh! No. Anyway! Judges are troublesome people, Sadhguru.
Sadhguru: It’s essentially because of this. We are trying to transform people from being Indian to being English. English language is the only thing we should have picked up. Do you understand? English language is the only thing we should have picked up because that’s the passport to the world. I am saying what we pick up… if you go shopping, what you pick up from a shop is by choice. If you pick up compulsively or you buy whatever they’re selling, it’s a stupid thing.
So the idea of Mahatma Gandhi and the rest of the clan fighting for freedom and getting the British out was, so that we could choose what we want to do with our lives. We did not choose because we were lethargic or we were just overwhelmed or we were just… our idea of superiority was… you know misplaced. We somewhere thought anybody who consers…conquers must be superior. We just tried to implement that system as it is, including the judiciary everything as it is. No, if you want to build a nation you must fit the systems the way people are. The kind of people we are, we need to develop that kind of system, not a conqueror’s system, you don’t take it as it is (Snaps his finger) and say this is a nation. Just by fly a… flying a flag, you don’t become a nation, come on.
Just because you hoist a flag, you don’t have a nation. If you want to build a nation, you must understand the people, what their needs are, what kind of mindset we have and we fit in those kind (kinds?) of systems, adjust the systems. People are making the adjustment but system is just imported systems, all of them. From education to judiciary to everything to everything is (are?) just imported systems. (Applause) It’ll only work if you leave the nation. Please see this. Any Indian who leaves the nation, he succeeds because there it works. (Laughter/Applause)
Chelameshwar: Or… or is it that people start working after leaving the country?
Sadhguru: Not true. Not true. Even here… See it is a very unfair thing to say Indians will work only if they leave the nation, it’s not true. Here they are working, constantly uphill. There they are working on a leven… level field. That’s a big difference. The success is coming because of the level playing field, not because here they were lazy and there they are working hard. That’s not true.
It’s true even for me, productivity-wise. (Laughter) Really. If I have to get a building permission here in India for a spiritual institution, it takes months on end running from pillar to post. In United States we’re building an Ashram, nothing, there’s a (an?) Architectural Code. You read the book, you build the building. After that, the inspector comes and sees. If it’s according to the Code, he sanctions it and goes. Otherwise the building goes down, you go in. (Laughter) And that’s it, simple. (Laughs)
Chelameshwar: You know why? There is a reason why I asked that question. Not that I am trying to say people are lazy here or… The question is, there is a certain… No, I am… I certainly don’t have…
Sadhguru: No, I am trying to articulate the frustration of Indian people. I am not frustrated. I am quite okay. (Laughter) Because I have a… I have a different scene – if I close my wo…eyes, the world just vanishes for me. That’s the end of the world for me, the moment I close my eyes. So, I have a certain advantage. I am trying to articulate the frustration of every Indian person, who has to work uphill for every little thing.
Chelameshwar: We only wish the world vanishes for us also when we close the eyes. (Laughter) But unfortunately it doesn’t vanish.
Sadhguru: That is… see that is the thing. That is why eyelids were given to you, to shut off the world. (Laughter) But not working efficiently. That’s the idea of the eyelids you know – you close it, the world is gone – but no efficiency.
Chelameshwar: But the mind still continues to work I suppose.
Sadhguru: That’s why I said no efficiency. (Laughter)
ChelameshwarHow to create that efficiency, please tell us. How to make it more efficient?
Sadhguru: Is that a question?
Chelameshwar: Yep. (Laughter/Applause)
Sadhguru: Okay. (Laughs)
Chelameshwar: Unless you believe that it’s not a question!
Sadhguru: (Laughs) No, no. Why is it people mind… people’s minds are running away? We are running away from the Indian problems now, okay? Why is…most human beings are in such a state that their mind does not take instructions from them? This is a fundamental aspect.
This may be a little… it’s very basic and shocking, may be for people. The only and only reason why the mind is in a state of compulsive action instead of being in a conscious state of action, what I mean by a conscious and com…or compulsive state of action is – see now I can move my hand where I want. So that’s why this is a useful hand. Suppose it was going all over the place, it would be a ridiculous hand, isn’t it?
The same is true for the mind. Only if I can move it the way I want it, it’s a useful mind. If it’s jumping all over the place, it’s a ridiculous mind. The only comfort that people have is that other people cannot see it. (Laughter) Now, that is not true. If you pay enough attention you can clearly see it. So why is this happening? The moment you get identified with something that you are not, suppose you think whatever in your life – you’re running a business, you think you are that. Or you have a family, you think you are that. You’re gathering a body over a period of time and you think you are that. You are gathering a huge amount of memory in your mind, you think you are that.
Things that you gather can only be yours. They can never ever be you, isn’t it? That’s a fact. The moment you make this mistake that you identify yourself with things that you are not, after that you cannot stop the mind. You will be in a constant state of mental diarrhea, endlessly it will go on because you’ve eaten bad food. If you want the diarrhea…diarrhea to stop, you don’t need a wine cork, you just stop eating bad food. It will go. If you don’t eat anything it will go, you know?
So, this wrong identification – that you are identified with something that you are not, or in other words you’ve mistaken something that’s not you as myself. Once this happens, you do whatever circus you want, you can’t hold your mind in one place, it’ll go all over the place. It will never listen to you because it is not yours anymore. It’s identified itself with something. May be the nation, may be your work, may be your family, may be your emotions or your memory or whatever, once it’s identified with something that it is not, it will just run. You can’t stop it. Nobody can stop it because there’re no brakes on it. Only thing is you can switch off the ignition. So closing your eyes is just switching off the ignition. However it may be running, if you close your eyes, it’s over. But that is not so for most people – forget about meditation, most people cannot sleep. (Laughs)
This is because they are so horribly identified with things they are not. They… see right now, to understand a simple thing, you know very well you were not born like this. You came like this (Gestures) and slowly grown. So obviously you gathered this. If you realize now that this is not me, I only gathered this, you will see immediately mind will be in a certain state. Everybody should get it now. If you don’t get it now, one day you will get it from the maggots. Just a bit late, still it’s worth it but just a bit late. (Laughs) If you get it now, you can enjoy it. If you don’t get it now, it will be late. So this one simple thing, the mechanics of how the mind functions – nobody wants to look at it. Everybody wants a solution. Solutions will not come without realizing the nature of the problem, isn’t it? Just sometimes it may work. Anything… maybe a glass of wine made you ‘Ooff’ like that, may be a relationship, may be a television show or knock on your head, anything can do this. But those are accidental happenings. That is not a solution. That’s not a solution.
Once in a way something may work, that’s not the point. But without understanding the nature of the problem, if you create a solution, like we are going about creating solutions for this country without understanding the nature of the problem. The Indian people don’t want food, they want opportunity to make their own food. Yes or no? What do you think? (Applause) All of you, you want free food or do you want an opportunity to earn a living of your own?
Sadhguru: You need an opportunity to make your own life. You don’t want the Government to provide life to you. That is only when you’re down and out.
Chelameshwar: Well! I think… I think I should give sometime for the audience to raise some questions. At this stage, may I request if anybody from the audience wishes to raise any question or make any suggestion for further debate?
Questioner: Swamiji Pranam. Justice Sahib Pranam. This is Srinivas. My question is in two folds. As we all know, as Swamiji also said that more than fifty percent of our population is living like cattle and all and we all are very much worried about seeing the rampant corruption. Since I am told the Justice were involved with the electoral process of this country and I feel the root cause of the corruption starts from the electoral process. Government decides 1.5 lacs for fighting an election and we hear people are spending hundred crores for (to?) fight a MP election. If we stop there, if we have some rules and regulation of checking – that is one part of it. I would like to seek your advice what Government would be doing.
And second thing which I feel…
Sadhguru: We could go one question at a time, please.
Participant: Yeah. Thank you. Okay.
Sadhguru: He is not the Government anyway. He is the Justice. He is not the Government. (Laughter)
Chelameshwar: Never I am from that. This is an area where I wouldn’t like to make any statement because they are sensitive issues which are likely to… anything can come before the Court on these matters and I am not supposed to make any comment about these things.
Sadhguru: So right now… Because I am reckless, I will make comments. (Laughter) Right now what’s happening in many situations is the judiciary is stepping in and taking certain steps. The nation, the concerned part of the citizenry at least is sitting up and clapping their hands, ‘This is great.’ Yes it is as a solution, immediate solution. But on the long run, that’s not how it should happen. It is not the Judiciary, which should be deciding these things, it should be the executive, it should be the parliament, which should be deciding. Because the parliament is continuously not in that state, Judiciary is coming in and doing these things, it’s great for now. It’s wonderful that some leading lights in the judiciary took some very bold steps – in the last two three years we have seen some heroic decisions, which is wonderful. But still it is not good on the long run. On the long run, it is important right decisions are made by the executive.
Judiciary are only those who’ve committed something wrong, something off the law, should be going to the Court. If the Government is going to the Court every other day, that’s not good. That’s not a good trend. It’s good for now, but it’s not a good trend always judiciary stepping in and finding solutions for what the executive should have done. So, as he said, there’re many such things it is not within the jurisdiction to make comments about these things and the problem is also in the citizenry that people have been asking me about this and I asked them a simple question about corruption when it comes – if there are no policemen on the street, how many of you would stop at the red light? Ninety percent wouldn’t stop. I see this. You know when I drive for example in Coimbatore City or wherever else, if the red light comes, if there’s no policemen, if it is over 9 o’clock in the evening or something, I stop and I see people, who are parked behind me honking and then they come like this (Gestures), they do and go. (Laughter/Applause) “What’s your problem? No policemen what are you doing here?” (Laughs)
So if you are the kind if there is a policeman you behave one way, if he isn’t is another way, you are a natural criminal. This has to go from a very early age. This has to be removed from a very early age – right from our schooling time if the teacher is there one way, if he is not there another way, if the parents are there one way, if they’re not there another way – this has to be eliminated from the society. Otherwise, you will not have… it’s a question of ‘who gets the chance’? Okay. Who gets the chance to rule the nation? That’s all.
So, the solutions… these kind of solutions if you go for it, it’s long term. Right now yes, by law you have to fix a few things. They must be… those who are depriving the people of their right to live well in this country must be punished. That’s not happening enough. We need some more, very bold judgments where people, at least a few people who’s on the political class have at least entered the prison and come out, which had never happened in fifty years, you know. (Laughs) It had never happened, at least it’s beginning to happen, which is a good thing. But I think it’s still not enough. There is a solution from the top, there is a solution from the bottom. I think from both ends it must start as quickly as possible. Only then somewhere we can meet. Bottom thinking the top should find the solution, top thinking the bottom should find the solution, nobody will find it. Please.
Chelameshwar: I would like to add a… something to that. See in the context of the judiciary, whatever it is doing today, I totally agree with you. It is something like this. If a man’s health has gone bad, he gets into the hospital for a day or two or for a week to set right… to get the thing right, it’s treatment. Well, if a man’s whole life is to be monitored from the hospital – that is something totally wrong with that body. So obviously it shouldn’t be expected that the judiciary should be running the administration of this country every day, in which case the body… the health of the system itself is… no. Whenever there is some temporary disease in the body, then people go to the hospital, get cured or similarly there is some problem in the system they go to the court.
Sadhguru: It’s an emergency situation but if every day there’s an emergency, then…
Chelameshwar: Well! In which case the body… you know Sadhguru… then there’s something seriously wrong with the body and perhaps other things have to be examined. A prolonged emergency is not good for a body I suppose. (Laughs)
Sadhguru: Please take the microphone, somebody.
Questioner: Sadhguru, Namaskar. Okay Sadhguru there is just so much…
Questioner 2: My question is…
Sadhguru: Please wait for the microphone.
Questioner: There is just so much radicalism out there in society right now, especially. I am actually very active on Twitter and all and very…
Sadhguru: Twitter is not radical. Hundred and forty characters saying some innocuous things is not radical enough for me.
Questioner: But you end up fighting with a whole lot of people from around the world. You said something very beautiful – “We have become a nation of believers rather than seekers.” How do you change someone’s mind? How do you… it’s… it just ends all rationale… all…al thinking just stops you know. You’re rationale in scientific and computer sciences but it stops when it comes to religion. It’s frustrating… I am not sure where to… I don’t know what… what do you… there is something very beautiful you said it. Just struck… struck in my mind. How do you… how do we become seekers? How do you get that spark in people?
Sadhguru: Hmm… it’s not about spark or setting fire to someone. (Laughter) It’s about just becoming straight with life. What I know – I know. What I do not know – I do not know, what’s the problem with this? What’s the problem with this, I am asking? Whatever I know I know; what I do not know, I do not know. What is the big problem with this? If you have a big problem with this, then you become a believer. You cannot admit that ‘I do not know’ because you have not realized the immensity of ‘I do not know.’ “I do not know” is the biggest thing that can happen to you in your life. Only if you realize “I do not know”, the possibility of knowing ever arises in your life which is destroying that possibility simply for some tit-bit thrown at you by somebody. It doesn’t matter who it is.
So both atheists and theists – see I am taking on everybody. (Laughs) That’s my problem. Both atheists and theists are people who neither have the courage nor the commitment to seek what is true. One will believe this way, another will believe that way, because it’s convenient. It’s convenient among a group of people to believe what that group of people believe. It gives you comfort, it gives you solace, it gives you support, it gives you a sense of belonging. If you do not know, you do not belong anywhere and that is the beauty of life that you do not belong to anything. So you start looking at everything with the same eye. If this belongs to me and that doesn’t belong to me, I will look at this one way, I will look at that another way. If nothing belongs to me, I look at everything the same way.
The biggest problem in the country is just this – what belongs to me and what does not belong to me, isn’t it? It is from the time of Dhritharashtr, till now the same blindness. (Laughs) Competence versus corruption. So, this is simply because you think you know. See, how do you know this one belongs to me and this one does not belong to you? It’s an assumption that you believe, isn’t it? You know recently (Laughs)… there… there is some DNA evidence that the…the Prince of English, The Prince of Wales is actually an Indian. (Laughter) How nice? Why did they send them out, I don’t know. (Laughter) We should have kept them here, they were of… after all our brethren. (Laughs) See we didn’t have a proper DNA test at that time. All these freedom struggle everything wasted… Tch… (Laughter)
So if you see I do not know, then you don’t belong to anything. When you do not belong to anything, you also belong to everything. When you belong to everything, you look at everything with an even eye. That’s needed… Especially if you are growing into positions of power and responsibility, this is the most needed thing that your eye is even on everybody and everything. Man, woman, animal, child, plant – everything you look at it as life and life alone and nothing more than that. If you look at it that way, you would do your best. It may not be ‘The Best’, you would do your best and that’s all a human being can do. (Applause)
Questioner: Thanks. When fifty percent of the population, that is women…
Sadhguru: Fifty two Sir! (Laughter) Don’t do injustice to women.
Questioner: …are bringing up their children working so hard, and many people are burning their midnight oil, why can’t the Government make an arrangement to solve so many pending cases of the Court by… if they’re unable to appoint any other judges, can’t they work in the evening shifts? Why should they have one month holiday when they have AC cars and AC rooms to work for that matter?
Sadhguru: This is not the way to go about…okay, what’s the question? Please come to the question.
Questioner: My question is that in order to solve the problems of the Judiciary, they should not go on leave, so much…one month leave and they take more than…three months or so…
Sadhguru: No, no. We just want the question. We don’t want all these counts…
Justice: No, no, no. Let him say that. Let him… let him say that… (Laughs)
Sadhguru: No, no. It’s already been stated. Please. We understood the question Sir, please. It’s not one month, they go on six months leave. I’ll tell you why? (Laughter) I understood the question.
Questioner: Thank you.
Sadhguru: They don’t go on one month leave, they go on six months leave because one thing is a cultural aspect, which we already looked at. Another aspect is a judgment may be just a five-minute judgment but that needs fifty hours of preparation. So, because their work is not onboard, it’s always off-board, because of that, a certain time arrangement is like that. So why can’t they work in the nights, the same people – day and night? (Laughs)
No. We definitely need… we can use the physical infrastructure day and night, we can’t use the same people day and night, that’s… that’s not going to work anywhere. Okay? Definitely we need to bring more efficiency into the system. Right now everything is lest in… left in the hands of people, who are supposed to know law. They are not managers. They are not good managers because court room is not just one room anymore. It is a multiple… it’s a complex, court complexes. They need proper administrators and managers, which I feel has to improve which some Governments are doing and it has to happen across the nation. And we’ve already dwelt on this. It is not something that can be solved tomorrow morning. But definitely we should start moving towards solutions. And anyway, whether Justice Chelameshwar Rao or any other Judge for that matter cannot dake…take the decision. That decision has to be a political decision.
Justice: Can I add something to what you said? Gentleman, instead of answering this question, I suggest that you spend one day with any Judge in this country and I invite you to come and spend a day with me in my residence. What most of the people in the general public do not… what the general public knows is the number of hours, which a judge sits in the court and works. But for doing that four-and-a-half or five hours of work, depending upon which court it is, the number of hours of work a judge is required to put in after going home is simply not known to this world. I honestly request you – just spend a day with any judge. Then you will know what exact…what exactly is happening. (Applause)
Sadhguru: They may…then you may choose to be in crime (Laughter) because everything is ‘onboard’ you know? (Laughs)
Questioner: Namaskar Sadhguru. You just said something about passion. We need somebody who is passionate about…
Sadhguru: No, no. I was talking about…I was not talking about your neighborhood, I was talking about the nation.
Questioner: Yes. We are talking about nation. Somebody who is so passionate about nation and wants to do something for the nation, and on the other side, you said the problem that we have is that we… the mind identifies with something or the other – business or something. So without the mind identifying with something, how is the passion going to come? If I am not passionate, if I cannot identify myself…
Sadhguru: Have you ever felt passionate in your college or in your neighborhood?
Questioner: Yes. For example with the current work that I am doing…
Sadhguru: No, no, no, I am talking about romantic passion. (Laughter)
Questioner: (Laughs) Yes. Obviously. Many times.
Sadhguru: So you did not identify with that girl. Did you?
Questioner: True, I mean I did not identify myself with her… but…
Sadhguru: Yes, but still it happens. That’s all I am saying. (Laughter/Applause) It still works, I am saying.
Questioner: Thank you. (Laughter)
Dr. J. C. Badra: Thank you Sadhguru. I am Dr. J.C. Badra – this side, Sadhguru on your left, back side of Justice Chelameshwar. I am a Senior Advocate and practicing lawyer. I have all admiration for the Judge sitting on the dais. And I also assure you that nothing is wrong in the infrastructure of the Courts or our society. It is not the infrastructure who has failed us but it is the men who have failed us. This is all I want to know and I want to seek your opinion.
Sadhguru: The ladies will protest. (Laughter)
Justice: And I think it’s time that we give the chance to the ladies. So far it’s only the men who have been speaking.
Sadhguru: He is…He is taking the whole credit upon himself. I am sure the ladies will protest. That’s why I said.
Deepti Gupta: Hallo! Pranam.
Sadhguru: Who is speaking?
Deepti Gupta: My name is Deepti Gupta. I have been associated with School of Planning & Architecture, teaching architecture and project management.
Sadhguru: Where is she? Where is she? Okay?
Deepti Gupta: My point is regarding what Sadhguru just discussed, sometime back about copying of the western systems even when it’s not needed.
So as teachers, when one is in a position to influence a lot of people and in a way, the way we are moving ahead in a certain technology, it is always a doubt for me as to which path to take because the way the society is moving, the copying of the multinationals and trying to build high-rise and the densification of the urban areas and to follow traditional methods which were more sensitive to our lifestyle and to the climate and to the ecology and to the natural resources. And how to sort of combine the two, which could make it a holistic approach, because if one is not sound in technology and cannot cope up with the market expectations, then also you are not competent enough and if you do not apply your sensitivity to the existing structure of our society and the geography then also it’s very stupid. So I would like your guidance in this matter, please.
Sadhguru: (Laughs) This is concerning architecture? (Laughter)
Deepti Gupta: Well! I suppose it is architecture and it also applies to lot of similar areas especially in the field of technology.
Sadhguru: I got it. See I am not talking about traditional values. I am not talking about India being an isl… isolated nation doing its own thing. No. As I said earlier, if you go shopping, you must choose what you want. You must not take whatever the salesman is pushing on you. Something is fifty percent discount, so you don’t buy it. You will buy something that you need, isn’t it?
So even from the rest of the world, the same thing. You pick up what is going to be good for us. You don’t pick up something that they’re peddling to us. So what they don’t need they would like to peddle to you. You should have the sense not to take it in. You must take in what we need and what’ll work for us. English language works for us. Oh we picked it up. May be we didn’t pick it up, it was thrust upon us, it doesn’t matter but somehow it worked out for us.
Everything else, you must see. From a simple thing to anything – I was… you know… there is a classic example – The tribal school close to the Ashram where we have been working. First I went there about fifteen years ago to see… we thought we will, you know, participate in this school in some way and I wanted to see how the children are. I went there and all these kids… there were just about eleven, twelve kids in the school, nobody else thinks the school is worthwhile. One teacher-school and eleven, twelve children and Government has given them uniforms and they are all wearing ties. The ties are worn here (Gestures) like a necklace, okay – long string and tie here. (Laughs)
So I said first thing is ‘remove these damn ties. Why these children are hanging this tie here on the chest and walking around? (Laughs) This is not a necklace.’ But the kids don’t know what’s the difference. Something you have to wear like this, they know only this and they are wearing it. It took a lot of effort to convince the teacher, but the teacher was afraid because the Government has given the tie. They have to wear the tie. In Tamil Nadu, if you wear a tie in the summer, it’s as good as a noose you know. (Laughter)
I am saying – from something so simple what food to eat, what is comfortable in tropical weather, what is the best thing to eat, what is the best thing to wear is something that we have to look at, isn’t it? You just don’t have to imitate somebody, simply because they managed to conquer you. They did not conquer you because they were superior people. They had gun powder and you didn’t. That’s all.
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