Karma – Unfathomable Fate or Ultimate Freedom?
Deepak Chopra: I’ve been a student of Karma all my life. I read in the Upanishads that the mystery of Karma is unfathomable. And yet, in other places, you read that it’s the ultimate validation of freedom. And, I thoroughly enjoyed your book. So I would like to ask you to explain what you mean by Karma at all these subtle levels – physical, energetic – and why, in your opinion, is Karma actually the validation of freedom?
Sadhguru: Who you are is a consequence of Karma. When we say Karma, let’s understand it in Information Technology terms – it is your software. This software makes you who you are. You are Deepak because of all the experiences, information, and impressions that you have. If all these are wiped out, there is no Deepak.
The composite of these eight forms of memory is what is 'Deepak' right now – this is 'you.'
The one who calls himself Deepak exists, as a person, only because of the memory that is there. Normally, we see it as eight forms of memory – elemental memory, atomic memory, evolutionary memory, genetic memory, personal karmic memory, sensory memory, articulate and inarticulate memory. The composite of these eight forms of memory is what is “Deepak” right now – this is “you.” What you think is “me” is just the karmic body.
What Defines Me as Me?
Deepak Chopra: That’s so fascinating because when I look at “me,” I can’t find myself! I’ve had so many identities as an embryo, a fertilized egg, a baby, an adult...
Sadhguru: Instead of looking at it as an embryo, it is a combination of your parents’ memory. From there on, memory, memory, memory is what makes you.
Deepak Chopra: Yeah, but then it’s all provisional, right? There’s no permanent “me,” is there?
Sadhguru: There is room for transformation. When I say “transformation,” I’m not talking about change. Transformation means nothing of the old should remain. It is possible to do that. That is the reason why there is an entire body of spiritual sciences for you to transform yourself. Just by changing your attitudes, by leaving one club and getting a membership in another club, by changing where your life, you can change your life in some way. But that is not transformation.
There is an entire body of spiritual sciences for you to transform yourself.
Transformation means to get disengaged from an entire body of memory, which is transforming your way of being into something totally different, something absolutely new. This is why in India, we call an enlightened being a dvija – that means a twice-born. Once, you are born out of your parental memory, and from there on, you acquired more memory. The second time, you are born by disengaging from this karmic memory and creating a whole new possibility.
Is the Concept of Karma Compatible with Science?
Deepak Chopra: You are challenging, right now, the most guarded constructs of modern science, and let me tell you why. I’ll give you an example: I learned how to ice-skate when I was five years old. One day, many years later, I was going past Rockefeller Center. I saw people ice-skating, I picked up skates, and I started to skate. And then it occurred to me that the brain that learned how to ice-skate is not the brain that is ice-skating now – every molecule, every atom in the brain has changed.
The brain itself is a product of Karma, and that of course is challenging. And consciousness is what is also experiencing the brain. This is a very big challenge to modern science, which believes in the basic construct of materialism.
We may have a common evolutionary memory, but we have a distinctly different genetic memory.
Sadhguru: Deepak, I would like to make a small correction on the comment. That is, I don’t think modern science disagrees that the memory is entrenched in the body, in every cell – because genes, chromosomes, and DNA, are all products of memory. My genetic content is my memory, and your genetic content is your memory. We may have a common evolutionary memory, but we have a distinctly different genetic memory. I don’t see how science can disagree with this because this is a body of memory.
The Mystical Fourth Dimension of the Mind
How we look at it in the yogic sciences is, there is an intellect which is the knife edge without which you cannot survive in the world – the sharper it is, the better. This intellect is held by your identity. Your intellect will function based on what kind of identity you have. But the intellect cannot function without data. So there is something called as manas, which is a silo that contains every type of memory.
The fourth dimension of the mind is called chitta. This is an intelligence which is unsullied by memory. I do not want to use the word “consciousness” because everyone is using this word in different ways. So, we will call it chitta – an intelligence beyond memory.
Only if you touch chitta, can your transformation be total.
These three parts of the mind – intellect, identity, and manas – are very different from person to person. But when it comes to chitta, there is no such thing as yours and mine. Chitta is the living intelligence of the cosmos. You captured some, I captured some, but you cannot call it yours or mine. Only if you touch chitta, can your transformation be total.
Just a Question of Perspective?
Memory is a boundary. Suppose I know you from the past, the moment I see you, I think, “Oh, this is my friend.” Suppose you’re not in my memory: “Oh, who is this guy?” My memory creates the boundary. Memory is a great possibility of survival and knowledge. At the same time, it is a barrier that you cannot cross, unless you touch a dimension of intelligence that is free of memory. The moment you touch that, there is no such you and me. There is a universal experience of life.
In Yoga, you are never trying to sort out your Karma – you just distance yourself from it. It is like this: Suppose you are driving to the airport, and there is a traffic jam. It’s getting late, and you get agitated because of the traffic. All the red lights you see in front of you drive you crazy. Then somehow, you make it to the airport, and you take off. When the plane is hurtling, you see the same traffic jam from above. This whole stream of red lights actually looks quite spectacular and wonderful to you, just because there is a little distance. We are looking at life like this.
In Yoga, you are never trying to sort out your Karma – you just distance yourself from it.
Your body has karmic memory that you cannot decipher. The memory is so complex and messy that trying to sort it out in this life is a futile effort. As you dig deeper, it will go on like an endless pit. So, we are only looking at how to keep the karmic memory aside. There is no problem with any personality or identity. The problem is only that you are compulsively stuck in it. Otherwise, the world is beautiful and colorful only because all of us are different.
